——专访中国维权人士吕耿松
访谈时间：2026年8月22日
记者：贾嘉 沈美花
访谈地点：《在野党》杂志社
人物简介：吕耿松，中国著名异议人士，中国民主党浙江委员会主席。1956年出生于浙江杭州，浙江大学历史学专业毕业，曾任浙江省公安高等专科学校教师，因为“8964”而辞职。他长期关注中国社会问题、腐败以及普通民众的权益维护。2007年，吕耿松因参与中国民主党活动，被以“煽动颠覆国家政权罪”判处有期徒刑4年，2011年刑满释放。出狱后，他继续从事中国民主党活动。2014年，吕耿松再次被捕。2016年，杭州市中级人民法院以“煽动颠覆国家政权罪”判处吕耿松有期徒刑11年、剥夺政治权利5年。
2025年，吕耿松刑满获释。两次入狱、十余年的牢狱经历，并没有改变他的基本信念。如今的吕耿松依然关注中国社会、人权与民主问题，也愿意与年轻一代分享自己的经历和思考。这次访谈中，我们试图从他的个人经历出发，了解一个曾经身处体制内的知识分子，为什么走上维权之路；了解两次入狱和漫长监禁给他带来了什么；也试图寻找一个问题的答案：一个人经历十多年牢狱之后，为什么依然没有放弃自己的信念。
2025年，曾两度入狱的中国维权人士、独立撰稿人吕耿松刑满回到家中。从第一次被捕，到第二次被判处11年有期徒刑，他的人生经历了漫长的牢狱岁月。出狱后的吕耿松，依然保持着一种令人意外的平静和乐观。今天我们连线上吕老师，面对两位年轻后辈，他谈起了自己为什么走上维权道路、1989年经历对自己的影响、两次入狱，以及十多年监禁期间最难忘的经历。网络信号被严重干扰，不断中断，手机也因为长时间通话而发热，但谈话仍然继续。他说，自己从来没有因为这些经历而放弃最初的信念。
一、从农村走出来：看到别人受苦，就想去帮助无助者
谈起自己为什么会走上维权道路，吕耿松首先提到了自己的成长经历。
他说：“我从小就在农村长大的。”农村的生活经历，让他很早就接触到普通人的生活和困难。
他说，自己最初帮助别人，并没有特别复杂的目的。
“我看着老百姓有苦难，我就想去帮助他们。”
（图片：吕耿松在维权群体里深孚众望）
二、1989年：人生思想发生重要转变
吕耿松曾经在体制内工作，也有一份相对稳定的职业。但1989年的经历，对他的思想产生了非常大的影响。
回忆当年的情况，他说，自己曾经到街上、大学校园以及相关活动现场，听年轻人和学生们讲话，亲眼观察当时发生的一切。对于一个身处体制内的人来说，这段经历成为他后来人生道路上的重要转折点。
当被问到1989年之后自己的思想是否发生了变化，他的回答很明确。
那段经历让他开始更加关注民主、社会公正以及普通人的权利。
此后，他逐渐从一个体制内的知识分子，走向独立写作和帮助民众维权。
三、“别人来找我，我就不得不帮”
在长期从事维权工作的过程中，越来越多的人开始找到吕耿松。
他说：“我愿意帮助人家维权，他们都来找我。”
很多人知道他愿意帮助普通人解决问题，于是不断有人找上门来。
对于这些求助，他并没有因为自己已经经历过第一次牢狱而停止。
采访中，我问他：
“您已经因为这些事情付出过代价了，为什么还要继续做？”
吕耿松的回答很简单：
“我的天性就愿意帮助别人，我就乐意做这样的事情。”
这句话听起来非常朴素，但或许正是他多年坚持的原因。
他并没有把帮助别人描述成一种宏大的政治行为，而更是一种个人选择——看到别人有困难，就想伸手帮一下。
四、第二次入狱：11年并没有改变他
吕耿松第一次入狱是在2007年。
出狱以后，他仍然继续从事写作和维权工作。2014年，他再次被捕，后来被判处11年有期徒刑。
第二次漫长的监禁，对他的身体和生活都造成了巨大的影响。
但在谈到这段经历时，他并没有表现出明显的悲观。
相反，他讲起监狱里的生活时，最让采访者印象深刻的，是他对于一些看似细小问题的坚持。
五、“我不肯认罪”
谈到狱中的经历，吕耿松首先提到的是一个细节。他坚持不认罪。
在看守所和监狱期间，他曾因为是否需要向管理人员喊“报告”等问题发生争执。
当他听到狱警说喊“报告”就是一种“认罪”后，吕老师在狱中就再也没有喊过“报告”这两个字！如果自己认为没有做错，就不应该为了获得所谓的“表现”而违背自己的原则。
他说：“我就不喊报告了。”
这一坚持持续了很长时间。他知道这样的做法会给自己带来更严格的管理，甚至会遭遇禁闭、处罚等“严管”后果。
但他还是选择坚持。
他说：“我反正已经坐牢了，最多就是严管。”
在他看来，既然已经失去了自由，那么至少应该保留自己的判断和尊严。
六、因为生活用品问题，与监狱管理人员争辩十多次
另一个让他印象深刻的事情，是监狱工作人员不定期检查和整理他的物品。
按照他的回忆，有一次检查之后，他发现自己的物品被弄得非常凌乱。
于是，他找到相关管理人员理论。
他说：“你们到底是贼还是强盗？把我的东西搞成这个样子。”
这样的争执并不是一次两次。他回忆说，自己曾经因为类似的问题与管理人员发生过十多次争辩。
有人可能会问：为什么要为了这些事情和管理人员发生冲突？
吕耿松的回答依然是：因为他认为不合理的事情，就应该说出来。即使身处监狱，他也不愿意因为害怕处罚而放弃自己的基本尊严。
七、最难受的不是身体，而是不能自由阅读
在十多年监禁生活中，吕耿松认为，对自己的精神折磨尤其严重的事情之一，是阅读受到限制。
他说，自己非常喜欢读书。但在服刑期间，他曾长时间受到限制，不能自由阅读自己想看的书和报纸。
后来，在不断争取之后，他获得了一些阅读机会，但这个过程非常漫长。
他说，最初能够获得的阅读材料非常有限，甚至一份报纸也需要等待很长时间。对于一个长期写作的人来说，无法自由阅读意味着什么？答案不言而喻。
书籍、报纸和知识，是他与外部世界保持联系的重要方式。但即使阅读受到限制，他也没有因此放弃自己的思想。
八、“从来没有没有动摇过”
采访中，我问了一个非常直接的问题：
“在这样的状态下，您的思想有没有动摇过？”
吕耿松的回答非常坚定：“没有动摇。”
他说，自己甚至会把监狱里要求阅读的一些政治书籍当作一种反面材料来阅读。
当书中出现一些关于“民主”“人民”等概念时，他会从另外一个角度思考：
如果一个制度真正民主，为什么现实中又存在这些问题？
这种思考方式，也成为他在长期监禁期间保持精神独立的一种方式。
他说：
“我从头到尾都知道自己的信念是什么，坚持的是什么。”
这也是整场采访中最让我感受到力量的一句话。
九、十五年之后，他为什么依然乐观？
与一个经历过十多年牢狱生活的人相比，出狱后的吕耿松显得非常平静。
我问吕老师：
“经历了这么多，您为什么还能保持这么乐观？”
他并没有把自己的乐观描述成一种特殊能力。或许对于他来说，真正支撑自己的，是一种长期没有改变的信念。
他相信，中国最终会实现民主。
而且，他认为这个目标并不是遥不可及的。
当我问：
“您觉得这个时间会不会很久？”
他的回答是：
“不会太久！”
简单的一句话，却透露出一种非常强的信念感。
十、给年轻人的三个建议
采访最后，我想请吕耿松老师给我们一些建议。
他的回答可以概括成三个关键词：
第一，坚持民主理念
他说：
“希望你们要坚持民主的理念，相信中国一定会实现民主。”
在经历过多年监禁之后，他依然没有放弃这一信念。
第二，踏踏实实做事情
他说，年轻人不能只停留在口号上，还应该做一些具体的事情，比如帮助那些遭受不公、受到迫害的人。
“要做一些比较踏实的工作。”
在他看来，真正的改变并不只是表达观点，更重要的是能够帮助具体的人。
第三，要有扎实的知识
他说：“要有扎实的知识，没有扎实的知识也不行。在他的理解中，信念与知识必须结合起来。只有真正了解历史、社会和政治，才能形成自己的判断，而不是简单跟随别人。
十一、“你们要相信，中国一定会实现民主”
采访接近尾声时，我告诉吕耿松，我们这一代没有亲身经历1989年，也没有亲眼见过当年的历史。我们更多是从父辈的讲述中了解那段历史。
因此，我们更需要通过与吕耿松这样的前辈交流，更深入地理解过去，也寻找继续坚持的力量。
吕耿松回应说，希望年轻人能够继续学习、坚持自己的理念，同时尽可能帮助那些需要帮助的人。
他说：“坚信这个民主是可以实现的。”
这句话也成为这次采访最重要的落点。
十二、“如果他们找您怎么办？”
采访过程中，吕耿松还提到一个现实问题。他知道自己现在的言行仍然可能受到关注。
他甚至半开玩笑地告诉我：
“如果你们给我聊完天以后，可能马上就有国保的人来找我了。”
这句话让现场气氛一度变得复杂。
一方面，他依然愿意与年轻人交流；另一方面，他也非常清楚，自己经历过的那种压力并没有因为刑满释放而彻底消失。
我也因此反复提醒他：
“您一定要先保护好自己。”
结语：走出高墙之后
这次采访的网络条件并不好。
声音一次次中断，画面不断卡顿，手机因为长时间通话甚至开始发热。
但即便如此，这场对话还是持续了下来。
对于我来说，我们想了解的不只是一个“政治犯”的经历。
大家更想知道：
一个人经历了十多年牢狱之后，为什么还能够保持自己的信念？
吕耿松给出的答案并不复杂。
帮助别人，是他的选择。
坚持自己的判断，是他的选择。
相信民主，也是他的选择。
他说：“我从头到尾都知道自己的信念是什么。”
2025年，他走出了高墙。
但十多年牢狱生活并没有改变他对未来的判断。
如今，面对年轻一代，他仍然希望他们能够学习、思考、帮助别人，并坚持自己相信的东西。
也许，这正是这场采访最值得记录的地方：
一个走过漫长牢狱岁月的人，走出高墙之后，依然没有选择沉默。
编辑：黄吉洲 校对：冯仍 翻译：戈冰
Having Endured 15 Years in Prison, He Still Believes Democracy Will Come to China
— An Exclusive Interview with Chinese Human Rights Activist Lyv Gengsong
Date of Interview: August 22, 2026
Interviewers: Jia Jia, Shen Meihua
Location: Office of The Opposition Party Magazine
Biographical Profile:
(Photo: The Zhejiang Democracy Party of China team under the leadership of Lyv Gengsong)
In 2025, Lyv Gengsong was released upon completing his sentence. Two imprisonments and more than a decade of incarceration failed to alter his fundamental convictions. Today, Lyv Gengsong remains focused on issues concerning Chinese society, human rights, and democracy, and is willing to share his experiences and reflections with the younger generation. In this interview, starting from his personal trajectory, we seek to understand why an intellectual who was once within the establishment embarked on the path of rights defense; to understand what two imprisonments and long-term incarceration have brought him; and to seek an answer to one question: Why does a person still refuse to abandon his convictions after enduring more than ten years in prison?
(Zhu Zhengming, Lyv Gengsong, Xu Guang)
In 2025, Chinese human rights activist and independent writer Lyv Gengsong, who had been imprisoned twice, returned home after completing his sentence. From his first arrest to his second sentence of 11 years in prison, his life passed through long years of incarceration. After his release from prison, Lyv Gengsong still maintained a surprising sense of calm and optimism. Today, we connected online with Teacher Lu. Facing two members of the younger generation, he spoke about why he embarked on the path of rights defense, the impact of his 1989 experience on him, his two imprisonments, and the most unforgettable experiences during his more than ten years of incarceration. The network signal was severely jammed and kept interrupting, and the mobile phone grew hot from the prolonged call, yet the conversation continued. He said that he had never abandoned his original conviction because of these experiences.
I. Coming Out of the Countryside: Seeing Others Suffer Makes Me Want to Help the Helpless
Speaking of why he embarked on the path of rights defense, Lyv Gengsong first mentioned his background growing up.
He said: “I grew up in the countryside from a young age.” His life experience in the countryside allowed him to come into contact with the lives and hardships of ordinary people very early on.
He said that his initial intention in helping others did not involve particularly complex motives.
“Seeing the common people suffering, I just wanted to help them.”
From helping individuals to coming into contact with more and more rights defenders and ordinary citizens, he gradually discovered that behind some specific social issues lay even deeper problems.
(Photo: Lyv Gengsong enjoys high prestige among rights defense groups)
II. 1989: A Major Transformation in Life and Thought
Lyv Gengsong once worked within the establishment and had a relatively stable career. However, the experience of 1989 had a profound impact on his thinking.
Recalling the situation back then, he said that he had gone to the streets, university campuses, and relevant event sites to listen to young people and students speak, observing firsthand everything that was happening at the time. For someone within the system, this experience became an important turning point in his subsequent life path.
When asked whether his thinking had changed after 1989, his answer was clear and definitive.
That experience led him to begin paying greater attention to democracy, social justice, and the rights of ordinary people.
Thereafter, he gradually transitioned from an intellectual within the establishment toward independent writing and helping citizens defend their rights.
III. “When People Came to Me, I Had No Choice But to Help”
In the process of long-term engagement in rights defense work, more and more people began to seek out Lyv Gengsong.
He said: “I was willing to help people defend their rights, so they all came to find me.”
Many people knew he was willing to help ordinary citizens solve their problems, so people continuously came seeking help.
Regarding these requests for help, he did not stop simply because he had already experienced his first imprisonment.
During the interview, I asked him:
“You have already paid a price for these things; why continue doing them?”
Lyv Gengsong’s response was very simple:
“It is in my nature to be willing to help others, and I simply take pleasure in doing such things.”
This statement sounds remarkably plain, yet perhaps it is precisely the reason for his years of perseverance.
He did not describe helping others as a grand political act, but rather as a personal choice—seeing someone in difficulty and wanting to lend a helping hand.
IV. The Second Imprisonment: 11 Years Did Not Change Him
Lyv Gengsong’s first imprisonment occurred in 2007.
After being released, he nevertheless continued his writing and rights defense work. In 2014, he was arrested again and was subsequently sentenced to 11 years in prison.
This second, protracted period of incarceration had an immense impact on his health and life.
Yet when speaking about this experience, he showed no obvious pessimism.
On the contrary, when he recounted life inside prison, what impressed the interviewers most was his adherence to principles regarding issues that might seem minor on the surface.
V. “I Refuse to Plead Guilty”
Speaking of his experiences in prison, the first detail Lyv Gengsong mentioned was one specific point: he firmly refused to admit guilt.
During his time in the detention center and prison, he had disputes over whether he needed to shout “Reporting!” (Bao-gao) to prison administrators.
When he heard a prison guard remark that shouting “Reporting!” constituted a form of “pleading guilty,” Teacher Lu never uttered the words “Reporting!” in prison again! If he believed he had done nothing wrong, he should not compromise his principles merely to earn so-called good “performance” marks.
He said: “Then I simply won’t shout ‘Reporting!'”
This stance persisted for a very long time. He knew that doing so would bring about stricter management over himself, even leading to severe administrative consequences such as solitary confinement and disciplinary punishment under “strict control.”
Yet he still chose to hold his ground.
He said: “I am in prison anyway; at most, it’s just ‘strict control.'”
In his view, since he had already lost his freedom, he should at least preserve his own judgment and dignity.
VI. Arguing with Prison Staff Over Ten Times Over Daily Necessities
Another incident that left a deep impression on him was the prison staff’s irregular inspections and search of his personal belongings.
According to his recollection, after one inspection, he discovered that his belongings had been left in absolute disarray.
Thereupon, he confronted the relevant managers to argue his case.
He said: “Are you thieves or robbers? Turning my things into such a mess.”
Such disputes were not isolated occurrences. He recalled that he had argued with prison managers over ten times over similar issues.
Someone might ask: Why come into conflict with administrative staff over such matters?
Lyv Gengsong’s response remains: Because he believes that if something is unreasonable, it should be spoken out against. Even while in prison, he was unwilling to abandon his fundamental dignity out of fear of punishment.
VII. The Most Painful Aspect Was Not Physical, But Being Unable to Read Freely
During his more than ten years of life in prison, Lyv Gengsong believes that one of the things that constituted an especially severe mental torment for him was the restriction on reading.
He said that he was extremely fond of reading. Yet during his term of imprisonment, he was restricted for a long period, unable to freely read the books and newspapers he wished to read.
Later, after continuous striving, he obtained some reading opportunities, but this process was extremely drawn-out.
He said that the reading materials he was initially able to obtain were extremely limited, and even a single newspaper required waiting for a very long time. For someone who writes long-term, what does being unable to read freely signify? The answer speaks for itself.
Books, newspapers, and knowledge were his crucial ways of maintaining contact with the outside world. Yet even when reading was restricted, he never abandoned his thinking as a result.
VIII. “Never Once Wavered”
During the interview, I asked a very direct question:
“In such a state, has your thinking ever wavered?”
Lyv Gengsong’s response was exceptionally firm: “It has not wavered.”
He said that he would even read some of the political books required to be read in prison as negative commentary materials.
When concepts such as “democracy” and “the people” appeared in those books, he would reflect from another angle:
If a system were truly democratic, why would these issues exist in reality?
This mode of thinking also became a way for him to maintain spiritual independence during long-term incarceration.
He said:
“From beginning to end, I have known what my convictions are and what I persist in.”
This was also the single statement throughout the entire interview that made me feel the greatest sense of strength.
IX. After Fifteen Years, Why Is He Still Optimistic?
Compared to someone who has endured over ten years of prison life, Lyv Gengsong appeared remarkably calm after his release.
I asked Teacher Lu:
“Having gone through so much, why are you still able to maintain such optimism?”
He did not describe his optimism as a special capability. Perhaps for him, what truly sustained him was a conviction that had remained unchanged for a long time.
He believes that China will ultimately achieve democracy.
Furthermore, he believes that this goal is not out of reach.
When I asked:
“Do you think this time will take very long?”
His response was:
“It will not be too long!”
A simple sentence, yet it revealed a profoundly strong sense of conviction.
X. Three Pieces of Advice for the Younger Generation
At the end of the interview, I wanted to ask Teacher Lyv Gengsong to give us some advice.
His response can be summarized into three key concepts: First, uphold democratic ideals.
He said:”I hope you will uphold democratic ideals and believe that democracy will surely come to China.” After enduring years of imprisonment, he still has not abandoned this conviction.
Second, engage in practical, down-to-earth work. He said that young people cannot stop at mere slogans; they should also do concrete work, such as helping those who suffer from injustice and persecution.
“You need to do more grounded work.” In his view, genuine change is not just about expressing opinions, but more importantly, being able to help concrete individuals.
Third, possess solid knowledge. He said: “You must have solid knowledge; without solid knowledge, it won’t work either.” In his understanding, conviction and knowledge must be integrated. Only by genuinely understanding history, society, and politics can one form one’s own judgments, rather than simply following others.
XI. “You Must Believe That Democracy Will Surely Come to China”
As the interview neared its conclusion, I told Lyv Gengsong that our generation did not personally experience 1989, nor did we witness the history of that year with our own eyes.
We learned about that history mostly through the narratives of our parents’ generation. Therefore, we need all the more to communicate with seniors like Lyv Gengsong to gain a deeper understanding of the past and to find the strength to continue persevering.
Lyv Gengsong responded by expressing his hope that young people can continue to learn, uphold their ideals, and at the same time help those in need as much as possible.
He said: “Firmly believe that this democracy can be realized.”
This sentence also became the most vital anchoring point of the entire interview.
XII. “What If They Come Looking for You?”
During the interview, Lyv Gengsong also mentioned a practical issue. He knew that his current words and actions might still draw attention.
He even told me half-jokingly:
“After you finish talking with me, domestic security officers (guobao) might come looking for me right away.”
This remark temporarily made the atmosphere on-site complex.
On the one hand, he was still willing to communicate with young people; on the other hand, he was extremely clear that the kind of pressure he had experienced did not completely vanish simply because he was released upon completing his sentence.
Because of this, I repeatedly reminded him:”You must protect yourself first.”
Conclusion: After Stepping Beyond the High Walls
The network conditions for this interview were not good.
The audio interrupted repeatedly, the video kept freezing, and the mobile phone even began to heat up due to the prolonged call.
Yet even so, this dialogue continued to its end.
For me, what we wanted to understand was not merely the experience of a “political prisoner.”
Everyone wanted to know more:
Why can a person still maintain his convictions after enduring over a decade of prison life?
The answer Lyv Gengsong gave was not complex.
Helping others was his choice.
Upholding his own judgment was his choice.
Believing in democracy was also his choice.
He said: “From beginning to end, I have known what my convictions are.”
In 2025, he stepped beyond the high walls.
Yet more than a decade of prison life failed to alter his judgment of the future.
Today, facing the younger generation, he still hopes they can learn, reflect, help others, and persist in what they believe.
Perhaps this is precisely what makes this interview most worthy of being recorded:
A person who walked through long years of prison life, after stepping beyond the high walls, still chose not to remain silent.
Editors: Huang Jizhou Proofreader: Feng Reng Translator: Ge Bing
